tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post5422341430010691419..comments2024-01-02T15:12:14.699+00:00Comments on War Poetry: Keith Douglas: 'Vergissmeinnicht'Tim Kendallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17917270014209480898noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-70898221568147557842016-10-07T19:52:42.176+01:002016-10-07T19:52:42.176+01:00Does anybody know if the photograph survived or mi...Does anybody know if the photograph survived or might it be in any of Keith's papers? <br />Also what is the source of the German lines in the 1943 version he called "The Lover":<br />Mein Mund ist stumm, aber mein Aug'es spricht <br />Und was es sagt ist kurs - Vergissmein[n]icht<br /><br />Joe researchingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-14043649420179925162012-02-15T21:44:01.355+00:002012-02-15T21:44:01.355+00:00"Vergissmeinnicht" seems to have a obvio..."Vergissmeinnicht" seems to have a obvious parallel in Ivor Gurney's "To His Love", since both involve a speaker, a dead man, and the latter's "love" to whom in Gurney's case the poem is addressed (the counterpart of Steffi). Both are concerned with remembering, and Gurney, too, makes special use of the speaking voice. In the opening, "he", the dead man who was the speaker's friend, is merged with "we" in the memory of idyllic experiences that the three shared, but there is an obvious distinction is between "us" who survive and "he" who is dead. However, it becomes clear gradually, though with increasing urgency, that the more crucial division is not between the dead and the living but between the two groups of survivors--"you", who can find comfort in memories and consolation in the thought of "noble" death, and "I", representing all who have seen active young men reduced to a "red, wet/Thing", whose aim must now be to forget. <br />Placing the two poems alongside each other, one realizes how very clearly each represents its own historical period--neither could have been written in the other war.Elizabeth Marslandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-30795636260352529672012-02-14T18:44:40.252+00:002012-02-14T18:44:40.252+00:00Very interesting conclusions about the rhyme schem...Very interesting conclusions about the rhyme scheme; ones I had not reached myself. Although I would say Vegissmeinnicht/script is only a slant-rhyme at best. Although I suppose within your framework, that would be Douglas's intent. ;)eviltediz43https://www.blogger.com/profile/05885274477490841218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-85907498249150568002012-02-04T22:48:54.734+00:002012-02-04T22:48:54.734+00:00Thank you for your post, I am looking for such ar...Thank you for your post, I am looking for such article along time, finally i found it in your blog.MDMAhttps://www.buzz-wholesale.com/glossary/MDMAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-34261042964666491512012-01-26T13:53:54.204+00:002012-01-26T13:53:54.204+00:00Hadn't read any of this poets work before nor ...Hadn't read any of this poets work before nor had I even heard of him. Obviously a very talented poet - sad he was taken away so young, yet great that his name lives on in the literary world.Joan Kelly Magennishttp://www.irish-poems.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-79262458470309973382011-05-26T02:57:59.720+01:002011-05-26T02:57:59.720+01:00The first sentence of my second paragraph should r...The first sentence of my second paragraph should read: "Surely the speaker of the poem is not "plainly" a soldier, though."<br />The last time I tried to correct this my whole comment vanished...Rogernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-66946868517577947732011-05-16T19:12:31.263+01:002011-05-16T19:12:31.263+01:00Terrific poem and analysis. Tim, thanks to you and...Terrific poem and analysis. Tim, thanks to you and comments too. Yes, rhymes come true... sometimes; they do. <br /><br />In long-past versifying, I used slant/off/bigger-words-for-it rhyme a great deal. Heart/hurt? No problem. Nicht/script? Well worth the reach (even if perhaps exceeding grasp). But spoil/girl strikes my ear wrong--too dismissive; a reductio abase'em (to coin a phrase that foolishly exceeds grasp). Also, I believe stanza 2 is more fixed than you suggested, with scheme abab via intended albeit attenuated rhyme: came on/demon.<br /><br />In sum,<br />a rhyme scheme<br />not odd <br />but post-Post Mod,<br />well-suited<br />for prime time<br />and fame.IWitnessEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18312808828448124509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-55096083551754131522011-05-16T09:43:05.703+01:002011-05-16T09:43:05.703+01:00Thanks to all for comments. Blogger is misbehaving...Thanks to all for comments. Blogger is misbehaving. Another reply on this thread has disappeared; I await its second coming. <br /><br />I made one or two additions to my original post which have also vanished. I had observed that abba becomes abab and aabb; even the rhyme <i>scheme</i> is unpredictable. Simon's point about the rhythm and punctuation is spot on. I've seen two accounts of the poem which believe that there is such a place as a 'gunpit spoil', for example. I enjoyed Mark's comment on the Hardy poem: 'years of mass' and 'poison-gas' kills the established Church with a single rhyme.Tim Kendallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17917270014209480898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-28043312967351852292011-05-16T03:11:52.981+01:002011-05-16T03:11:52.981+01:00Hi Tim,
Thank you for the kind words about the Er...Hi Tim,<br /><br />Thank you for the kind words about the Era of Casual Fridays, and for sending me back to my dog-eared copy of "The Verbal Icon" (un-consulted, as the marginalia in it suggests, since my grad school days). Hollander does do some of the best work along the lines you suggests, doesn't he? As in "Form and Resonance," e.g. Thank you also for "Vergissmeinnicht," and your discussion thereof; I'd not known it. (I also now know, and my gratitude for it, the proper term of art for those things I've been calling cross-linguistic rhymes and puns: "macaronic." Good to have the proper name.)<br /><br />For my money, Hardy's 1917 volume "Moments of Vision" is among the best responses to the war by a non-combatant. Speaking of Hardy, you've already treated at War Poetry his (later) "Christmas 1924," which has as disjunctive a rhyme as I can imagine (that sting in the tail of the second couplet):<br /><br />“Peace upon earth!” was said. We sing it,<br />And pay a million priests to bring it.<br />After two thousand years of mass<br />We’ve got as far as poison-gas.<br /><br />"Years of mass" / "poison gas": I guess the wicked joke has as much to do with the gaseous pieties we "pay" priests to purvey, sincerely or not, and which we then believe, sincerely or not, as it does with one kind of "Christian soldiering" and munitions.<br /><br />Best regards,<br />MarkMark Richardsonhttp://eraofcasualfridays.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-33880530601300493162011-05-15T21:28:36.708+01:002011-05-15T21:28:36.708+01:00Tim, this is a really excellent post. I wondered ...Tim, this is a really excellent post. I wondered where rhythm might fit in Douglas' approach here? It feels as though the tentativeness of the pararhymes is matched by a comparative tentativeness in the beat: virtually every stanza seems to be interrupted in some way through the use of punctuation, lending a halting quality to proceedings. It's only in the final stanza where the rhythm is allowed to march unimpeded, and as a result an effect akin to doggerel is achieved, which possibly underlines your argument about the poem's ironic intent in its final lines. <br /><br />Also, as an addendum, a couple of days ago you left a comment on my blog, but as a result of troubles that Blogger seemed to be having at the time with new posts, it's been involuntarily deleted. I thought I'd assure you that this wasn't a blogosphere snub on my part, as it's great to have you as a reader.<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />Simon @ Gists and PithsThe Editorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06264669059410810775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-85354831503759488492011-05-12T03:54:20.012+01:002011-05-12T03:54:20.012+01:00The rhyme, pararhyme, assonance, shifting stanza f...The rhyme, pararhyme, assonance, shifting stanza form all go with the poem's way of wrong-footing us. It sets out to shift our ground in every way. An obvious example is t2he first two stanzas- the implication of "the soldier sprawling" is that he is still alive and it is only slowly that we suspect and learn that he is dead. It's only in the second stanza that we learn he was an enemy soldier. <br />Surely the speaker of the poem is "plainly" a soldier, though. He is a soldier, but only by inference and he is not identified exclusively as a soldier as his victim is until the last stanza. On the other hand, the speaker is still alive, so does that mean he is the better soldier too?Rogernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-33852529778249351242011-05-11T15:21:22.885+01:002011-05-11T15:21:22.885+01:00Thanks for the pointer to that blog.
Neat how, af...Thanks for the pointer to that blog.<br /><br />Neat how, after all the brutal detail, there's the line "And death who had the soldier singled" which to me is distancing, less human - making the whole event small in the greater scheme of things, then smacking back to personal again with "done the lover mortal hurt."Victoria Janssenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259793807283856761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-71373962492880544952011-05-11T15:04:40.709+01:002011-05-11T15:04:40.709+01:00Thanks, Sheenagh. That's a very good point abo...Thanks, Sheenagh. That's a very good point about the speaker. Your comment also reminds me of something I should have mentioned: 'almost with content' is brutal enough, but the more natural phrasing would be 'almost with contempt'. That possibility is barely held at bay, conspicuously absent.Tim Kendallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17917270014209480898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2499661274163551793.post-56626369588057975572011-05-11T14:46:36.736+01:002011-05-11T14:46:36.736+01:00Fascinating comments on the rhymes. I also like th...Fascinating comments on the rhymes. I also like the way he uses voice and personal pronouns. Re "we never feel trustful of the speaker's attitudes or intentions", I think that's also because we are never allowed to know for sure whether the narrator of this poem, the soldier, is identical with the poet. And that repeated "we" - in "we found the place again", the "we" are plainly soldiers. But in "We see him almost with content" it sounds much more possible that we, the readers, are being associated with the "we" - after all we do, through the poet's agency, "see" the body.Sheenagh Pughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02735299981866333316noreply@blogger.com